Debate on Beauty in Art [Part 3 of n]
Comments: 16 - Date: July 23rd, 2007 - Categories: Philosophic, Art and Design
The following is part of an ongoing debate between myself and Paul regarding the nature of beauty in art. Previous entries include:
Round 1: Paul | Ted
Round 2: Paul | Ted
Round 3: Paul
Over the course of this debate, I have challenged Paul to do but one thing. Indeed, the rest of the debate relies on it, and so it makes sense that this thing should be the first thing accomplished. Furthermore, without this thing, Paul has yet to actually support his case with solid reasoning.
Two weeks ago I put forth this challenge:
Please explain what the universally accepted standards of beauty are.
Paul has not yet done this.
His first attempt involved the derision of people who fall outside his definition of normal, which he intended to mean “functions well”. In his post two weeks ago, he made the claim that those who do not produce babies do not function well. In his post last week, he updated this to say that insane people, and those who cut themselves do not function well. Insomuch that when one’s mental state prevents them from living without supervision, disorders exist. But the question remains: why does this preclude them from creating something beautiful? It does not. It may make it difficult for them to create something you think is beautiful, but who are we that we may declare their work invalid in any rubric, simply because they are not “normal”?
This is known as the ad hominem fallacy.
In his last post, Paul lists some things we find beautiful: what will do us good. He also defines what we find ugly: things that do us harm.
Counterexamples to this line of reasoning are so forthcoming that it’s difficult to take seriously. Potatoes do us good, but are not beautiful. Poison dart frogs are deadly and beautiful. Indeed, the “deadly beauty” concept is so prevalent it’s a cliche. Stars neither do us good nor harm, yet they are beautiful.
Paul even recognizes this with a volcano—but before it can derail his conclusion, he quickly dismisses by saying, “One, we probably do not find it beautiful, per se, but perhaps ‘powerful’ and ‘awe inspiring’.”
Later, in response to my question as to why he should be concerned with other peoples’ standards of beauty, he writes:
Because people with inferior conceptions of what is beautiful try to tell us that the 5,000 years of artists believing in something outside themselves that compels them to make art is resulting from a false philosophy (though that philosophy produced the greatest works of art this world has ever seen) and we need to accept that Fountain and 4′33″ are just as good because human thought has really advanced in the last 30 years.
According to Paul, those in the art intelligencia have inferior conceptions of beauty because they promote things which are inferior in beauty. Ignore the circular reasoning. Also ignore the fact that the statement “5,000 years of artists believing in something outsides themselves” is the fallacy argument from tradition. Maybe it has produced the greatest works mankind has ever seen. Maybe it hasn’t. But a word of warning: do not disagree on this point as that would be further evidence you have an inferior conception of beauty.
Paul also tells us that we do not find volcanoes beautiful. But wait—what if you do find volcanoes beautiful? (Disregarding that they’re not art.) According to Paul, because volcanoes are dangerous, thinking they’re pretty makes your conception of beauty inferior. Even worse—what if you’re gay? That also makes your conception of beauty inferior. Heaven forbid you’re a gay man who thinks volcanoes are beautiful; you might as well just leave.
Well, according to Paul. After all, he also wrote, “I have no problem with certain people finding my art crappy, if they’re poor artists,” as well as, “[a good artist’s] work will…aid in restoring the artist’s place in reaching out to fellow artists.” In other words: art is for artists, and if you suck as an artist (or you’re depressed, or gay, or find volcanoes beautiful), then you have an inferior conception of beauty.
The only conclusion we can reach from all of Paul’s arguments taken in aggregate is the following: if you disagree with Paul’s conception of beauty, yours is inferior.
Paul has been unable to define what beauty means to anyone but himself. He has not set forth any objective standards that universally apply. Any standards he has put forward apply as long as you agree with him that they apply. If you disagree, they appear nonsensical, insulting, or both. But by disagreeing, you also reveal your inferior conceptions of beauty, and so any disagreement you may have is invalid as an argument against his objective standard.
Since I disagree with Paul, my standards must be inferior. Because they’re inferior, they must be invalid as a refutation against the objectivity of beauty. Ergo, beauty must be objective after all.
How about that.
-Ted
Comment by Gay Man Who Likes Volcanoes - July 23, 2007 @ 10:42 am
That’s it. I’m leaving.
Comment by Bryan teh Smath - July 23, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
I wasn’t getting responses on the other blog so I thought I’d see if past ones are forgotten by adding my half a cent here.
To me beauty is always a matter of perspective. Opinion dictates beauty, and veriation from commonplace is what I find beautiful.
Bassically I find beauty in what Paul says is horseshit. If in fact Paul does say that his definition of Beauty is all encompassing.
It would not surprise me with “(I exaggerate for the sake of hyperbole but still…)” So you exaggerate to for the sake of exaggeration; that does deserve an ellipsis of confusion at the end…
Do yourself a favor, throw away your word of the day calender.
(sorry, I think I read too many smart ass t-shirts today)
i.e. If I was getting smart with you… How would you know?
Comment by Ted - July 23, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
I really haven’t had any disagreement on this, except from Paul. I think this is probably going to be my last entry in the debate. I’ve proved my point the best I’m able.
Comment by DavidCCasey - July 23, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
It seems that “contextual beauty” is also left out of Paul’s argument. There’s certainly nothing classically beautiful about the birth of a child — It’s actually one of the most violent and disgusting things you could witness, and yet people relish in the contextual beauty of the beginning of life.
It also applies to the work of artists whose work almost *requires* a knowledge of their background to truly sense the beauty in it. Sure, one could see strange doodles and just ignore it, but with the full knowledge of this artist’s tragedies and joys, it becomes beautiful. Empathy creates its own beauty — Again, the recognition of something known in something unknown — Connections, similarities, seeing something from elsewhere that’s a part of you — These are sources of beauty.
Sadness, to me, is as beautiful as joy. To Paul, unfortunately, it seems only vast, lofty pretensions are of any beauty whatsoever…
[That was my smack-down line that leaves the debate audience aghast, squirming uncomfortably in their intellectually-splattered seats. The first row is the Philosophical Splash Zone.]
Comment by Graham - July 23, 2007 @ 7:51 pm
Contextual beauty = the concept of the piece.
The context of a childbirth is revolting: blood, screaming, violence.
The *concept*, however, can be abstracted from the context, and is beautiful - the beginning of a new life. It’s what the concept represents that makes such a visceral experience beautiful.
Context is nothing. Concept is everything.
For a painstaking discussion of same, see my blog, http://zarvoc.wordpress.com on this very issue. In fact, Dave, if you’ve been missing out, this is the third blog in a series of three that goes over the concepts behind the creation of art and beauty.
Comment by DavidCCasey - July 23, 2007 @ 8:32 pm
Precisely the reason I quit writing…
Comment by Graham - July 23, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
You quit writing?! NNNNNNNoooooooooooooo………….
Comment by Ted - July 24, 2007 @ 9:40 am
Graham - I had pretty much the same reaction when I found out. I mean, how can you not pull an Edward Teem with anguish of that magnitude?
Dave - Did you quit writing because of the realization that concept is everything, or did you quit because it makes no difference how well you can [write] if you don’t have anything to say? Or a combination?
Because you probably have a lot to say.
Comment by Bryan teh Smath - July 24, 2007 @ 9:44 am
This is where the “concept” of the words context and concept may have eluded me. I would say that the context of someone being born often is the reason people find beauty in it. I say this without checking the definitions. I would think the context of someones relation to the child being born strikes them as beautiful, while the concept of the extension of their life could be the reason for said beauty.
Comment by Graham - July 24, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
I use context to mean qualia, or pure uncategorized sensory information. In a birth, you may have the hospital glare, the doctor’s business-like urging, the distorted female body, the blood and viscera, the sweat, the screaming, the reflection of the ceiling’s light off the pair of stirrups, the engorged vulva, the pained expressions around the room, the husband holding his wife’s hand, perhaps a priest looking on….all this information means nothing. It is the data. It is the setting. It is the form.
Birth can also include still-birth, underwater birth, birth in a hut, birth of a kitty-cat in a closet, & c.
Birth is the concept. Birth is the content. You extrapolate from the data received, your brain analyzes said data and activates symbols - neural firing patterns - in your brain for “child”, “mine”, “life”, “struggle”, et al. Then your conscious mind perceives the symbols.
The data presented is all form, context. It is an empty sonnet, 14 lines yet unwritten. Only through perception and understanding by the human brain does it become poetry, concept.
Without that, there is nothing.
Comment by Bryan teh Smath - July 24, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Or do we simply confound something to the point of grandure? From one man’s simple perspective it could just the death of his sex life.
I’m slightly off track here, wondering is this a discussion of art, concept, or conception of the human variety.
When you said “the distored female body, the blood and viscera” I thought this sounds like Hamlet’s ye old entry to the world.
Comment by Ted - July 24, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
>>From one man’s simple perspective it could just the death of his sex life.
Ha HA! It could also be that, though, of course, that also requires a brain so you’re talking about concept again.
I would agree, though: I think the words used to define these concepts are a little nebulous outside of the discussion. For example, when I think “context”, I automatically think “cultural context”, which is what it means in art history. Graham, you’re using it to mean something more like, well, setting. I like “setting”, or just “set” as in a movie set. The hospital and associated goings-on is the set. The beauty arises from the concept of birth as the beginning of life.
I guess you could call it whatever you want. I just have to keep reminding myself that “context” means “setting” and not “cultural interpretation”.
Bryan - This originated as a discussion on the beauty of art, but I think it’s just about the perception of beauty now. (The Objective/Subjective debate having been beaten into the ground, dug up, jumped on, and beaten into the ground again.) Our debates always sort of branch out into all kinds of semi-related areas.
Comment by Graham - July 24, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
“From one man’s simple perspective it could just the death of his sex life.”
It could be that, too; an equally valid concept taken from the context of the scene. The point is that the scene *itself* has no inherent worth, be it positive or negative. It’s an empty form which our minds fill with necessarily personal value and meaning.
This is effectively a discussion about how the mind works, and why nothing is inherently beautiful or meaningful. See the link above; we can continue the discussion (if you like) on my blog - we’re now unquestionably off-topic. (Sorry, Ted!)
Comment by Graham - July 24, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
From the point of view of art, context can also mean the artist’s skill. Context is the set of choices that govern interpretation.
From the point of view of assigning value or worth to an action or event, context can also mean the culture and the sociopolitical climate. I hope to touch on this in a couple days.
I originally decided on the word “context” (and believe me, it took a long while to distill all of this into the right words) because of this definition from dictionary.com:
“The set of circumstances or facts that surround and/or describe a particular event, situation, etc.”
Comment by DavidCCasey - July 24, 2007 @ 3:20 pm
Yes, I’m a dictionary.com junkie as well, and I looked it up just after I read that comment way up there. Concept was the word I was looking for. So many words, so little brain to hold them all in.
Although, when you break down the words — Context — With Text, which you can then distort to mean, with the words of a poet or grand literary master, so I’m right.
‘Cause break down the other word, and then… What the hell’s a “cept”?
Comment by Ted - July 24, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
Graham: huh, that works.
Dave: Plus then you’ve got “intercept”, “accept”, “except”, “recept…ical.” And, uh, “septillion”.
And I’ve got nothin’.
As far as getting off topic - Don’t worry about it.
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